Discussion relating to advanced courses on canine behaviour modification


    canine aggression course(Compass)

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    Julie

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    canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  Julie on Wed May 26, 2010 9:07 am

    have just recieved my canine aggression course from compass, looks good and with luck not to taxing so as to lead me back into study and prepare me for the adv/dip. is anyone else doing or done this course and how did they find it?
    Julie xx
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    olwen

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  olwen on Wed May 26, 2010 1:17 pm

    I've not done that one but it sounds interesting.

    I was at the APBC symposium on aggression earlier this year which was really good. The main point and the name of the day was aggression is emotional. You sould be able to buy the notes from the APBC website.

    What's on the reading list?
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    Carole.T

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  Carole.T on Wed May 26, 2010 8:49 pm

    Hi Julie,
    I am thinking of doing the ACC Aggression course, or one of the others, to upgrade to the Adv/Dip like you. I am still dithering (and waiting for a bit of cash injection - but I believe they accept installments now?). Are there any Special Studies required for this Course?

    Like Olwen, I would be interested to know what is on the reading list.

    Hi Olwen,
    Curious the conclusion from the APBC day that Aggression is emotional - has it ever been anything else?! It's like the chicken & the egg isn't it? Emotions control behaviour / behaviour controls and changes emotions etc. I may check out the APBC symposium notes, thanks for the info.

    I remember reading in Emma Parson's book 'Click to Calm - Healing the Aggressive Dog' : ""Change the Behaviour; the emotions will follow - While emotions drive behaviour, the reverse is also true.""

    A couple of years ago I started to study a diploma in Flower Essence therapy, and while I did not complete it for various reasons, it led me into studying my own dogs' emotions more (or as I perceived them) and changes to various behaviour 'issues' using these essences. I have to say, it was with mixed results - a couple of essences IMO, definately helped change or develop some emotions and thereby change their behaviours. So I feel in the case of animals that cannot utilise 'emotional' therapy (I.E. humans have the ability to use emotions to change their behaviour, like in 'smile therapy') this may actually act in reverse of Emma Parson's statement in that; change a dog's emotions and a change in behaviour will follow? Seems to make more sense to me.

    A bit off topic I know- just 'musing' on the thought of the Aggression course!

    Regards

    Carole

    Julie

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  Julie on Thu May 27, 2010 7:13 am

    Hi Carole and Olwen.
    The reading list is short, Dog Aggression by Barbara Sykes and The domestic Dog by James Serpell with the former being the preference surgested and advice to use as many forms of referencing as possible.
    I will take a look today at the APBC notes on aggression today.
    Aggression is emotion what ever species you look at and that includes us, infact behaviour is driven in the main by emotion.

    Julie
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    olwen

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  olwen on Thu May 27, 2010 11:52 am

    Fight by Jean Donaldson and Stress by Truid Rugass are both good and would be relevant to the course.

    The only time on the APBC day that aggression having other courses was when the speaker talked about it being inherited or possibly learnt from the mother.
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    Carole.T

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  Carole.T on Thu May 27, 2010 2:34 pm

    How true Olwen regarding inherited and learned.. hopefully changing emotions can sometimes modify aggression with these causes also? Mind you, I forgot about clinical conditions E.G. aggression can be a behaviour stage as a dog comes out of a seizure and off the top of my head, hypothyroidism? These may be difficult to modify using classical/operant conditioning alone.

    I have ordered the APBC symposium notes, I am sure they will be a useful reference.

    Thanks Julie for the Reading List info, not read the Barbara Sykes one.

    I have Jean Donaldson's 'Fight'/ Scholz & von Reinhardt 'Stress' (based on much of Sheila Harper's seminar I believe, so similar presumably to Turids?) / Parson's 'Click to Calm' / O'Heare's 'Aggression Workbook' / Pam Dennison 'How to Right a Dog Gone wrong' / Aloff's (Hefty tome!) 'Aggression in Dogs'. Might have to check out the Sykes book then.

    Thanks all - still pondering this one!

    Regards

    Carole

    Julie

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  Julie on Thu May 27, 2010 3:16 pm

    Thyroid disorder is a defo,as is seziure related disorders but you would be looking for a clinical diganosis for anything like these which is where having a good relastionship with the vets come in. Pain and illness can produce an aggressive response it does in me although I have not been known to bite yet. Thyroid disorder when left untreated causes many problems in dogs as it does in humans again i should know I have hypothyroid, so can imagine what it maybe like for a dog as it is not nice even in the early stages.
    When looking at the stressors for aggression the list must be almost endless, enviromental factors, the dynamics of the household or even the mental status of one individual. I guess one of the strangest that was posed on the interdogs forum was a case of hermaphrodite (bad spelling)which on further research was more common than I had expected. I guess the list goes on and on, would be intrested to hear of anything strange or unusal.
    As far as the course goes think I may take the advice from another post re: adv dip and do the revision questions first to ensure that I read the compass text completely instead of scanning which I have a habit of doing. Also got to get back into the habit of using terminology which I play down with clients.
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    Carole.T

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  Carole.T on Thu May 27, 2010 10:12 pm

    Ooops - Just twigged the Course under discussion is the Compass one, I am thinking of taking the Animal Care College one to upgrade to their Adv.Canine Psychology diploma - I blame it on a senior moment!

    Interesting Julie in that you concur about aggression being a symptom of hypothyroidism. I have no direct experience of that condition in humans or dogs - but my last dog had hyperthyroidism,due to a secondary thyroid mass in his throat (rare for dogs I know and took a couple of years/hundreds of pounds and a CT scan to fully diagnose it!)He was not aggressive as result (had some 'learned' dog>dog aggression which we resolved in the main), but interestingly he actually developed the reverse, he would have sort of 'panic attacks'.

    Good luck Julie on your Course. I'll go back to sleep now!

    Regards

    Carole

    Julie

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  Julie on Fri May 28, 2010 6:38 am

    That all make sense, underactive thyroid causes many symptons, weight gain, hair loss, change in heart rate,and tiredness like you have never known I would say that It is the individuals rection to the changes that are going on within the body that can lead to aggressive outbursts. Did your dogs panic attacks happen after you started the medication, it maybe that the level of prescribed Levothyroxin was slightly over the requirments to bring the thyroid back to normal levels, this would then cause a slight lean towards hyperthyroid which will cause rapid heart rate, palpatations and weight loss among others. In USA they controll the medication for this much better than we do over here, we have less fleexability in how much replacemnet we use so for a lot of humans we wonder around being either slightly under or slightly over so maybe this is the same for pets!
    I think my point is that we all react in different ways when our bodies are in crisis so would make sense to assume that dogs would be the same, so aggression would not be a given in a case of thyroid disorder . Enough rambling at 7.30am.
    Julie
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    olwen

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  olwen on Fri May 28, 2010 9:43 am

    As as already been said, many dogs react when in general pain, so a vet diagnosis is always advisable for aggression cases.

    Other factors to think of would be medication, handling and training methods, fear, hormones, testosterone,early socialisation. I think the list of causes can be endless but once any medical or environmental factors (internal and external) have been ruled out then a modification programme can be looked at.

    Just checked my books and the stress book is the Schulz one, not sure why I thought it was by Turid!
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    Carole.T

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  Carole.T on Fri May 28, 2010 8:48 pm

    Hi Julie,

    Rocky (who was hyperthyroid) was not tried on medication until the latter months of his life, after his condition had been confirmed as a result of a CT scan. His last few blood tests (after me insisting the thyroid levels checked AND personally sending a sample to Jean Dodds in the US) showed they were nearly 3>4 times the 'normal' range. Yes, he had an elevated respiration & heart rate. My previous vet, whenever I brought it up said "oh that's just him, he's an anxious dog" - which to be fair to Rocky, on a daily basis he was a very calm dog, its just that his metabolism was going 19 to the dozen, bit like the proverbial swan, all calm up top but legs going like billyio below! His 'panic' attacks increased after he had a couple of seizures, after his last multi-vaccine (as we subsequently discovered, his system was already compromised so should not have been vaccinated really). So, stopped vaccinating him 2005 - took him to homeopathic vet (the remedies prescribed were the only thing we tried that helped to bring the heart/respiration rates down. We then moved, so couldn't continue with that homeopathic vet). We saw 8 vets in total, tried human thyroid meds which made no difference at all, beta-blockers was the next to be tried- but sadly due to an unconnected and unknown bladder tumour (all tests were concentrating on the head end, not the other end!), he was 'pts' last year.

    It was weird in what set off the panic attacks - certain 'scents' such as burning smells, cavity wall insulation being pumped into nearby houses, echoes off cliffs at the beach, the noise of 'strimmer' type kites, fireworks, he really panicked at a dog show where there was live music 'bouncing' off nearby tall buildings. Poor lad, he was virtually 'bomb proof' to all these things before and used to sit and watch fireworks when we first had him. He would try to get to the highest point in the house, be frightened to go outside, pant & pace, or bolt if on a beach etc. When not 'in the zone' he was calm & very happy, apparently unlike the hyperthyroid dog one of the vets had experienced as: "climbing the walls" at a similar thyroid level as Rocky. It became difficult to keep weight on him, plus he became less tolerant of the heat.His only aggression during all this was as he was coming out of his 2nd seizure and growled at me, until he recognized where he was and who we were.

    My hunch is that he already had a small thyroid mass in 2002 when we adopted him (as I mentioned the dog's large 'adams apple' to the vet, who said it was not unusual), but in whatever way, the vaccination triggered or escalated the excessive thyroid production as that is when his behaviour changed and started to lose weight. So, we stopped vaccinating plus all flea, tick treatments & wormers in 2005 - he was 'pts' 2009. Funnily enough 2 homeopathic vets we saw (understandibly) told us not to vaccinate etc him again, and even the conventional vets agreed with this 'once' they saw the thyroid blood test results (yet would have happily kept vaccinating had we not insisted on the test). I am not anti vaccines per se, but now, I am thinking very carefully whether to or not when new dog, Jody, is due for his later this year.

    Funnily enough, when recently speaking to a couple of people who were hyperthyroid, they described much the same symptoms as Rocky. So by talking to them I could gain a great insight as to what his emotional state must have been during all this.

    Hope your hypothyroid doesn't cause you too much trouble.

    Regards

    Carole

    Julie

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  Julie on Sat May 29, 2010 6:30 am

    Bless Carole. We have a very good homeopathic vets near us so are lucky. Your poor Rocky must have felt as if the inside of hs body was moving faster than the outside world it is very unpleasant and this has caused me to have a couple of minor panic attacks just being stood in line for the checkout at tesco. Like I said in the USA they fine tune treatment and seem to test all areas to achive this over here they seem to do the basics and hope that all will be fine. Then you have to take into account that some humans and dogs will be more sesitive to these changes within the body and will get these symptons when others would not.
    The seizures must have been dreadful for you, we have an epileptic dog although at this stage not medicated and I dread the day that we need to go down this route.
    Have a good bank holiday all.
    Julie

    lance
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    Some references for Aggression

    Post  lance on Sat May 29, 2010 10:02 am

    Here are references to some sources about Aggression that you may find helpful.

    Re. Thyroid effects. www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-BIZARRE-BEHAV/
    THYROID.HTM
    Re Canine Aggression. www.animalhealthchannel.com/common/
    This talks of different forms/causes of aggression and also you could join their Aggression Forum
    Re Help of TTouch for Aggression. www.ttouchtteam.com/aggression.html
    article titled 'Is TTouch of value for Aggression?' Sarah Fisher

    A very thorough treatment of aggression in dogs; It is up-to-date and highly recommended. --

    Brenda Aloff, 'Aggression in Dogs' -practical management, prevention & behaviour modification. 2002, Wenatchee W.A. USA, Dogwise. ISBN 1-929242-20-4

    one reviewer says that Aloff gives a 'constructive,effective way without losing oneself in the murk of "dominance" theory and all the mythology that surrounds it.
    I think I got a copy from Amazon.

    Happy studying, Derek

    Julie

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  Julie on Sat May 29, 2010 1:57 pm

    Thanks to Derek and everyone else for the list of books and resources for this course. I have copied and pasted these so as not to miss lay them which I know I can do so easily.

    Julie

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  Julie on Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:27 am

    Hi Guys

    Need to pick your brains if that is ok?

    Stuck on a question because I cant seem to find the referencing to back up the answers I want to give.

    Module question 1.6 Give two examples of behaviour problems typically associated with two different breeds.

    Now I am well aware that certain breeds have a greater protensity towards certain behaviour problems but I cant find the info to back it up, all the books seem to skirt around this and the internet is not being much help or i am not searching with the right words.

    Now as the question doesnt seem to require that the behaviour has to be aggression I was looking towards using flank sucking in dobermans and maybe cooker rage or red rage as seen in some retrivers.
    So has anyone got any ideas where I can go for reliable referncing for this question?

    Thanks guys

    Julie

    lance
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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  lance on Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:25 am

    You may find something useful in these references

    CASE Linda P. 2005, The Dog Blackwell Publishing Ltd pp 173 -180

    SCOTT John Paul + FULLER John L. 1995 Genetics and the Social Behaviour of the Dog, Chicago University Press
    look in index under Breed Comparisons

    COREN Stanley 2005 How Dogs Think 2005 Simon Schuster Ltd, Pocket Books, pp 209 ff.

    I think it's helpful to first think of a behaviour that is specific/predominant to a particular breed (e.g. herding/chasing to Border Collie) which is not a problem to the dog, but would be a problem for the owner. Derek
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    olwen

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    Re: canine aggression course(Compass)

    Post  olwen on Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:38 pm

    I insist on that one and the one beginning with P being changed! Usually to Wainwrights, no colours and main ingredient is chicken

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