ACC Aggression Course

I must admit I wasn't ever supposed to become a dog groomer but was let down by someone when I had shelled out for a lot of equipment so it was a case of do it or its all wasted! Don't mind it but it isn't a passion!

I can't make my mind up about the Aggression course. Can I reserve judgement until I have received the Compass course info. From what I have heard I think the Compass course is much better. The information accompanying the Aggression course is minimal. For example the 2nd module which I am doing at the moment is pharmacology and diet. The notes accompanying bang on about how the brain works etc etc then goes on to say how different vitamins etc can enhance/suppress functions. For the questions for example you have to devise a diet to suppress aggression. Say how aggression can be classically conditioned. Can't just remember the other 2 and don't have it to hand.

They don't seem to want extensive referencing, certainly for module 1, I got a B and no comment was made about lack of references, just slight lack of depth in explanations which were incidentally all my own beliefs with a few references. I found it difficult to guage exactly how much information they wanted as the questions were quite ambiguous and when I asked how much detail they wanted I didn't get a reply.

So, all in all, I am not particularly impressed with ACC but as I said will reserve judgement until I see the Compass course, although having spoken to David Montgomery and having had a description of the material it sounds much better.

I've just discovered something annoying - I was sending a 'Post' the same time it seems as you Chris, as when I pressed 'Send' I got a message that another user had posted a message since I logged on - and guess what? Mine seems to have disappeared!!

Well, hopefully the original doesn't pop up again now but;

Re: the Aggression course, thanks for the info. I am in no rush to sign up so would still appreciate your thoughts when you have spent some more time on it.

There are 2 other ACC courses that I can do to 'top up' my Diploma to the 'Advanced' Diploma in Canine Psychology. However there is a lot of repetition of work done in those also. Mind you in a positive way, at least I have done reading and research around some of the topics already? Though from what I recall the Compass course didn't go into diets and what changes may affect/improve behaviour issues. Great information supplied in the Pharmacology module though, an Appendix booklet listing various medications and drugs, their uses, side effects etc.

Who is the tutor on the Aggression course?
My immediate thoughts on asking a student to devise a diet that may help with aggressive behaviour are;
(i) Is the tutor qualified in canine nutrition and behaviour (not many qualified canine nutritionists out there from what I have been led to believe).
(ii) Would a student have sufficient scientific background on nutrition to devise a suitable diet for any dog, let alone a dog with behaviour problems - most changes I read about on the APDT forum is personnal to each owner/dog's requirements and ability to change diets and much is trial & error.
(iii) The only information that I have read in more than one source with regard to a diet designed to change a dog's behaviour so far is Val Stong's diet, and that is a minimal change really.
(iv) What happens if the dog cannot tolerate any researched 'behavioural' diets?
(v)What happens when you BARF feed (as I mostly do), what does ACC or the tutor feel about BARF foods I wonder (If they do not approve, you are on a loser from the start really aren't you?!).

Or maybe they are expecting these things to be raised, researched and opinions given based on any research carried out?

I am not directing these questions at you Chris, apart from who is the tutor, just (excuse the pun) 'Food for thought'!!

Thanks for the insight though on the Course, it all helps in the decision making process. Pressing SEND now!

Hi Carole, this is awful, I can't remember the surname of the tutor - she is called Wendy and her email address is southeastdogtraining.

I must admit, I found it odd that there is a requirement to write a diet for a dog. As you say, without specific knowledge this is risky and not something I believe a behaviourist should be doing without the necessary qualification. I must admit I do give bits of nutritional advice out, like don't fee the food beginning with B and to check the ingredients on the packet to make sure there are no additives etc. I also advise people to use a rice and fish/chicken diet if a dog has a poorly tum until the problem is stabilised, but to visit their vet as well.

As you say, many people are very anti-raw, so is their opinion biased in any way if you suggest a raw diet as opposed to manufactured. When I spoke to David Montgomery about the Compass course I like that fact that he said even if the tutor did not agree with your ideas/beliefs as long as you could put up an argument with evidence then you won't lose marks.

Sorry you had a problem with your post. I have been a member of this type of forum in the past and I seem to remember having the same problem. Don't know what to do about it, does anyone have any ideas what to do about this?

Wendy is a big fan of James O'heare and I imagine that most of the diet related stuff is probably around control of dopamine and serotonin levels?

On a personal note, I'm not all that convinced that diet can play a relevant part in this respect. Yes, most definitely the elimination of e-numbers, colourants etc and ruling out allergens, but the jury is still very much out for me as to whether we can physically affect brain chemistry to an extent that would alleviate aggression.

That makes sense Chris. The notes to accompany the module are mainly concerning this.

Well, if Wendy is a fan of James O'Heare then, from his book researching 'BARF' diets (can't recall the title), the impression that I got from it was that he was anti-raw food diets - BUT - the other impression that I got from it was that he interpreted BARF as mainly raw bones, which if a BARF diet was, would be a correct criticism. I prefer the use of 'Biologically Appropriate Raw Food' as it encompasses the whole diet more. Nice tip though about the tutor if I do decide to go ahead with the ACC!

I would also give the sort of advice you do Chris I think. As even Vets are not nutrition experts, you can't be criticised too much for doing so can you, as there is no-one else to fill that niche? I just thought it strange that a course provider would delve in to dietary advice, suggestions maybe, supported by reading research?

With regard to how dietary changes help an aggressive dog, I have no idea. I know there is some thought that it does (will have to re-read up on it though). I personally think diet can help with anxiety cases, or where the dog needs help in balancing its general health and immune system in order to help it deal with stress in general. My example of that would be a personal experience of one of my dogs who had Hyperthyroidism, which made him increasingly anxious and spooked, but IMO I felt an all kibble diet recommended by the vet was not helping his higher metabolic rate re: digestion and when I put him back on the BARF regime, his digestion settled down. Plus a spaniel a dog boarder friend is looking after at the moment, suffered terrible diarrohea the first few nights, after a vet visit for some tablets (I do not know what they were) and on to a BARF diet, all has improved and the dog is becoming a lot calmer.

Digestion, the immune system and an emotional state IMO can effect each other? My friend's highly strung GSD has recently been diagnosed with IBS, which came first as it were, the chicken or the egg?

As for aggression, I have just finished reading a Roger Mugford book and he advocates the use of Beta Blockers to lower the raised Sympathetic Nervous System for dogs with behavioral problems. Although I would not automatically head down that route, funnily enough it was the next conventional 'last straw' treatment for my Hyperthyroid dog, in an effort to reduce his rapid heart and breathing rate. Though homeopathic remedies seemed to do the same when prescribed by our previous homeopathic vet. Sadly he had to be 'pts' before we could resume the homeopathic regime or trial the Betablockers.

So, just a thought - would increasing the availability of serotonin via diet, help de-stress a dog with Aggression to enable it to learn and make more positive associations/decisions? Who knows?!

Sorry, meant to also say about the Spaniel example , was that it was suffereing terrible SA all through the day and night, plus they are trying Phytopet herbal remedy 'Calm Plus', and a music therapy CD to help calm the little dog in its new surroundings - so who knows what helps and what doesn't really?

I am trying PhytoPet 'Calm' while carrying out a de-sensitisation regime for my dog who is afraid of going near and into cars - we have had more calm behaviour while on Phytopet then when I tried Serene-Um I think, but it is all a personnal interpretation and would he be getting better anyway without them?

I think I will put something to the effect that I am not qualified to design a diet for a dog but with the knowledge that I do have I would advise ........ Might also quote Val Strong's suggestion of pasta and have a look through James O'Heare and put a few refs in from there.

I don't know if this will help.
I got this book recently and I find it very useful:
THE DOG Its Behaviour, Nutrition and Health, Linda P. Case
(2005) Iowa; Oxford, Blackwell Publishing Ltd isbn 0-8138-1254-2
(second edition)
She up to date with latest research and gives an objective overview, i.e. she is not coming from any particular organisation or bias
Part 4 is Nutrition: Feeding for Health and Longevity (chapters 16,17,18,19. It seems to cover most diet things - Nutriment Requirements;Providing a Healthy Diet; Feeding for health throughout life;Nutritionally Responsive Disorders in Dogs. She gives a lot of references, a glossary and full index.

Thanks Lance, I will have a look for it. I found a paper on the internet today "impact of nutrition on canine behaviour ....." but haven't had chance to read it yet.

I have tried to change your status to moderator but don't know if it worked! There is an administration panel at the bottom of each page, if you click on that and I have done the job correctly you should be able to access the admin panel. Let me know if you can get there, if you can't I'll try again.

That looks a very interesting book Lance, thanks also, for the info.

Hi all,

If you are not already aware of this, I have just discovered a Google website (what would we do without it!);
http://books.google.co.uk

I was searching for the book mentioned by Lance on Health & Nutrition. The Google site displayed over 200 pages of the book to review (no, I didn't read them all!) and various on-line suppliers. FYI, Amazon was £10 cheaper than anyone else listed.

well found Carole. With the number of books we have to buy its always good to find a cheaper source!

I've often found Tesco (buying books online from them) to be one of the cheapest sources.

Well, I've deliberated no longer - I have just sent off the application form and registration fee for the Animal Care College's 'Modifying Canine Aggression' course!!

This will now enable me to upgrade (providing I pass that is) my ACC Diploma of Canine Psychology to, their 'Advanced Diploma of Canine Psychology' (HNC equiv) - which, with current available funds and time, and along with my Compass Adv. Dip CBM is about as high as I can go academically I reckon.

No more telly for me now then for the next few months!!

Regards

Carole

Well done Carole, let us know what you think.

Depending on the cause of the aggression, diet manipulation may help. If the primary cause is medical then no ammount of chaning the diet will do anything. I've seen Val Strong's diet used to great effect over the years, but I recommend that people use a different carb source than pasta as if the problems are caused by a gluten intolerance then pasta isn't going to help.

I'm another who advises against foods with loads of colourings etc in them and find that just changing this aspect can change the dog so this is the first thing I suggest, if there's been no improvement in a couple of weeks and the vet check has been ok then I look at other issues. It's actually got to the point that the nutrionist at the local shop knows when I've sent someone in (Pets at home have nutrition specialists). I have had someone who's dog was on a RAW diet as suggested by Barkbusters but the poor owner was a vegetarian and she had been advised to feed 1/3 of the diet as raw steak(carbs and veg being the other 2/3)! The dog was overloaded on protien and off its head. Change to JWB and there was a change in the dog.

The book Derek has suggested looks good and helpful. I can hear my debit card crying!

Unless you are a qualified nutrionist I don't think that devising a diet is a good idea which is why I suggest removing the e number foods and trying different brand. I don't know enough about RAW or BARF to make a diet from them but if people want to try I let them research it themself.

Thanks Olwen.

Some very sound advice, thanks.

Personally, I have done for some years and do feed mainly BARF for my dogs/dog - they have all absolutely loved it and it seems, done well on it. I have done years of reading up about it though and I also attended a canine nutrition weekend with Sally Askew. Not something the average dog owner would invest their time or money in I reckon. I would still be very wary of giving dietary advice to owners without them speaking to their vet first (though we all know what the majority of vets' suggestions would be!).I also feed commercial as well, depending upon the daily demands and circumstances (was JWB, but Arden Grange on current dog) plus Naturediet, or similar. This is just a personal preference. I have a friend however who is almost evangelical about BARF, but I have told her more than once she must let her clients research and make up their own minds!!

You're right about the pasta, 2 of my last dogs were wheat/gluten intolerant. One dog's colitis stopped once on a BARF diet, though I used to lightly cook the meat for her. Two of the last dogs had minor aggression issues at some points in their lives, but mainly 'learned' behaviour or fear related, not (obviously that is) linked to diet. It is interesting to hear that Val Strong's diet has worked on some dogs, as I was tempted when Jody first joined us (over excited behaviour -though he was still then on Arden Grange only, as the DogsTrust fed this). He is calming down now, so no point really just for the sake of it.

Luckily Jody has no aggression issues to worry about, - just a super shiny coat, great muscle tone and nice clean teeth - mind you, he is only about 2yrs old so has the advantage of the general 'glow' of youth on his side!

Interesting about the barkbuster's advice, was it pure steak? Totally wrong! The recognised ratio between 'meat:veg/carbs' is usually 60:40 / 70:30, some advocate 50:50 or even 80:20 (I think that is too high though). Depending upon additional treats fed, the dog's body tone/ any medical conditions / lifestyle etc, I vary between 60:40 & 50:50. Both the homeopathic vets I've seen in the past advocate BARF (well they would I suppose!). I just prefer to feed as natural as possible and find it easier to include/exclude ingredients as & when needed.

Yes, those brightly coloured dog foods still sell by the trolley load don't they?

I have used cooked potato, sweet potato, squash etc. for starchy carbs. When I add rice to a meal, I now use wholegrain (preferably organic) puffed rice, as opposed to cooked rice, which has always gone straight through my dogs the same as it went in! I find the puffed rice is totally digested, plus provides some fibre. The raw food I use is from a nearby 'natural feeding' pet shop and they mince their own freshly supplied meats (chicken/wild rabbit/game/venison/tripe/fish. It includes the ground meat,bone,cartiledge etc.) they supply some wonderful smelling pulped veg,fruit and herb mixes - almost too good for dogs! But this type of premises is rare.

One thing I am aiming to research is the physiological processes of excess protein in the body (apart from the danger of struvite crystals etc,) and how this actually expresses itself. I know that excess protein creates excess energy - but how and how does the body try to get rid of it/utilise it? It's something I am trying to get my head around.

I purchased the book suggested by Lance, not gone through it yet though.

Regards

Carole

Yes it was pure steak that the dog was getting, not top range prime fillet but that was the only protein.

The struvite crystals is interesting as the dog also peed in the house, I took up the newspaper that was there for her and as it stopped I thought that was the problem, ie the dog was being given permission but it did coinside with the diet change, poop also changed from looking like porridge to being formed and brown.

I know what I am like when I've had a protien overload so can only imagine what it's like for a dog.

Sometimes my own dog used to get his own food (yuck)! Naturediet used to give him colitis but he was fine with Nature menu and the packets of frozen food but his main diet was Jolley's Lifestages.

It just goes to show how individual dogs are re: suitable diets and how difficult it is to find an appropriate diet for our own dogs, let alone anyone else's. Though vets aren't always the experts either are they, or agree! I guess the vegetarian owner won't be liquidizing some nice raw liver then to make livercake treats (gluten free flour of course), as I have to later:-)!!

I know my local vets are given food by Royal Canin to give to customers as samples and I get "the vet recommended it".

If you think of all the things vets have to cover they just can't be expert in everything. Some of them do specialise but that's usually in the interesting surgical side of things.

The dog gets JWB treats. I hope you don't put garlic in your liver treats.

So behind wtih posts, trying to catch up! Why not garlic? Onion definite no no, but cooked garlic is fine.

I used to feed raw and had Tom Lonsdale to stay a few years ago and he ran a seminar up here for us. He was great, but not very practically minded, and wouldn't give people quantities, said they had to use their eye to get the right mix, which isn't really what someone who is just starting out wants to hear!

Unfortunately can't fee raw at the moment because of Peggy's problems, she is chicken and red meat intollerant and its just too difficult and expensive to buy fresh fish for her. So we home cook rice and frozen fish for her, the others get Luath.

Diet is so important, I hate it when someone sends in a booking form and it has the food beginning with B especially on it. I usually have a chat with them and persuade them to change! A bit naughty I know, but I have the dog's welfare at heart!

Re: Garlic. Yes I have included this in my dogs diets for years (one lived to 15, one to 16) with no obvious problems. However, I use garlic puree in the tubes (easier!), and include a pea sized amount when feeding raw a couple of times per week (when feeding commercial I don't add supplements). One interesting thing is, when I fed the others garlic - one had 1 tick in her 14years with us, Rocky had half a dozen in the last year (we have moved to 'tick' country) and they were not treated with flea/tick chemicals etc. New boy Jody, has been treated with Practic for the last cple months and I'm removing about 3 every week. Hmmm... maybe time to stop the chemicals & up the garlic?!

Re: ACC Aggression Course - Have received the 1st 2 modules. Quite like the tutor's style so far. I ordered her (Wendy Hanson) email book 'Feeding Your Dog for Health and Behaviour' and I take it back, she does not come across as anti-barf, almost the opposite and the Forward is written by a homeopathic vet, plus she includes a transcript of a Debate held at the Robinson College, Cambridge entitled "This House believes vets should advocate feeding manufactured foods" - which makes interesting reading. She does present info on all types of feeding though. She does also give details of Val Strong's diet, but feels B6 supplementation is not needed as the dog gets this from meat in the diet. Wendy also discusses the 'protein myth' and effect on behaviour, she states that there are other variables that may change as a result of a BMP, not just protein levels. In her text she states that if high protein was a contributory factor to behaviour problems, then there would be more 'BARF' fed dogs presented with behaviour problems, which in her words she says "there aren't" (though I don't know what research backs this up). My 'gut' feeling is that it is the quality of the protein and that it is easily utilised by the dog, rather than worry about the percentages, but I am going to try to research further at some point how 'excess' protein in the diet is dealt with by the body. I also obtained Wendy's CV, she does have a Diploma in Nutritional Medicine from Rusland College (not sure if that is human or animal nutrition though) plus the ACC 'Advanced Nutrition for Dogs & Cats'.

I attended a Sarah Whitehead 'Hyper-dog Master Class' day last week, and Sarah implied that diet can affect behaviour and again mentioned Val Strong's diet, but she did also state that there is very little research out there on diet and behaviour (Val does not cite any research in her book apart from her own, which is a shame). Sarah suggested that trialling a 2.5kg bag of dry food such as Arden Grange (who state on their web-site, according to Wendy Hanson :"Arden Grange do not manufacture a low protein diet, because there are no biochemical or nutritional factors to support this"). Sarah stated that if by the time the 2.5kg bag had been used and there was little change to behaviour, then it is unlikely that diet is a contributory factor (apart from the possibility that the old diet may have had colourings and additives that possibly cause behaviour problems?).

A topic without a definitive answer I think!

Regards


Carole

Interesting post Carole. I really must get to grips with this module and get it finished. I just seem to be so busy these days and the time goes by without me realising! I didn't get Wendy's booklet but am now wondering if I should. I keep dipping in to various books and must say that the majority agree that diet has a contributory factor to behaviour. I think it was John Rogerson who stated a few years ago that diet has nothing to do with behaviour, but at the time I believe he was heavily involved with a manufacturer.

Hi there Chris (and anyone else who may be doing this ACC course),

How are you doing?
Things have been a bit quite on the forum recently, busy summer etc.

I have sent off my Module 1 to Wendy, so will just see what comes back and after attempting some decorating next week (ha ha, as I have sprained the tendons in one elbow, being over-enthusiastic digging out shrubs!)I will knuckle down to Module 2.

All the best

Carole

P.S.
I hope everyone else is getting on ok and getting the marks they hoped for in the other courses as well.

Hi There,

For those doing the ACC 'Aggression' course, AT LAST... I have finally finshed Module 2 and it will be posted of tomorrow.

Basically, re: the 'Calming' diet I played safe and opted for suggesting commercial products, if nothing else to potentially increase the quality of any diet being fed;

JWB Lamb or Turkey & veg or NaturalDogFood Company's 'All In One kibble. (Both are nasty additive/preservative or colouring free and have a good meat protein content)

and (esp if Kong filling);
Naturesmenu pouch (no Rosemary preservative) although it has sugars, but they are considering removing them. Or;
HiLife - Natures Essentials pouch meat (no nasties, and again seems good quality ingredients)

Didn't choose anything with rosemary as a preservative (Naturediet has and a lot of big Company dried foods) as from what I recall from Sally Askew's weekend and what I researched (and NatrualDogFood Co confirmed to me as to why they did not use it)it is an excitory herb and not recommended for dogs who have seizures. So, although the amount may be inconsequential for a healthy dog, I decided to hedge my bets and exclude it.

My 'Calming' ingredient/s were;

Omit all colourants/synthetic preservatives & additives etc.

First choice: Serene-Um (being an exisiting, researched and easily obtainable and administered, I felt this a safe product, plus I had experience of it helping lower aggression threshold with my last dog).

Second choice: Possibly Skullcap & Valerian - or, Val Strongs Behaviour manipulation diet (not had any experience of it though to back it up with examples).

I learnt some interesting things;

Excess protein is actually converted in to fat in the body, the same as carbs!!

Fish has a higher Tryptophan level than meat.

Royal Canin have brought out a prescription diet called 'Calm cd 25', in which the 'calming' ingredient is from a milk based protein (they don't do it for dogs over 15kg as the cost and volume of this 'special ingredient' would be too high).

The following website has some great nutritional breakdowns of almost every food you can think of (well nearly, as it is USA based);
www.nutritiondata.self.com/facts

That's where I found out that;cooked white pasta had relatively high levels of Tryptophan, but Quinoa was next and cooked white potatoes came in at number 6!

Minerals aren't destroyed by cooking (as some Vits are).

And lots of other stuff that has now embedded itself in the far flung recesses of my brain, ready to tackle Module 3!!

All the best in your progress on your various Courses,

Carole