Discussion relating to advanced courses on canine behaviour modification


    Different Organisations

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    ukpackleader

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    Join date : 2010-03-30

    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  ukpackleader on Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:28 pm

    Admin wrote:
    ukpackleader wrote:Hi, My name is Jason. I live in Rochdale, Lancashire, and I run a canine behaviour and training business covering the North West Area. I am registered through INTO dogs association.
    Jason

    Hi Jason, welcome to the forum. I have just had a look at the INTO dogs site, it looks very interesting. How long have you been a member, do you feel it benefits you? Do you have a forum where you can all discuss cases etc?

    I am a member of the APDT which always helps with credibility!
    Chris

    Hi Chris, I have only been a member for about 2 months with this association, and there is a good feel about the association, as the members are all friendly and knowledgable, plus we do have a forum to discuss cases and help each other, which helps spread the knowledge.

    Jason
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    Carole.T

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    various 'Professional' Organisations

    Post  Carole.T on Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:28 pm

    Hi all,

    What do people think of all these different 'Pet Professional' organisations new and established, and which would be the best to join after completing all these different courses?

    I say this as I also looked at the INTODOGS web site after Jason mentioning that he was a member, I had heard of it but never looked it up before.

    Now this is all becoming a bit confusing for me I admit, as I did take the APDT assessment a couple of years ago, but sadly missed it by 1 point! As the dropped point was on the 'practical' and I do not run classes, nor shall be in a position to do anything but 1>1s UFN I don't see a benefit of re-applying as it seems very class orientated. I was thinking of applying to the UKRCB but now, the ACC has also instigated an 'Accredited Pet Professional' register, which the running of has been passed to an idependant body; 'The Pet Care Trust'. Now this IntoDogs has been set up, it is all very confusing who would be the best choice to pay good money to for the price of credibility for clients/vets etc!

    I pay my dues already to the following;

    Kennel Club Accreditation Scheme ('Member working toward accreditation')

    IACE - The Institute of Animal Care Education (on the completion of my A.Dip CBM - but you get nothing much for your money really)

    Now there seems a choice of;

    KCAI - Kennel Club Scheme - Very involved on the paperwork side but does cover Trainers and Behaviourists.

    APDT - Only covers Training. As I don't run classes I think that I would be out of practice to improve my 'practical' skills to pass.

    UKRCB - Only covers Behaviour .Would have to send a CV, attend an interview and then still not know if accepted as a Student or higher Provisional level.

    INTODOGS - Seems to cover Trainers & Behaviourists. No idea on how they 'rigourously' vet members? From looking at it, it seems to veer toward the Sheila Harper set up and her International dog Training/Behaviour courses? Many of which I have attended. But I like the indication that they consider the use of complimentary therapies, as I have some experience using Flower Essences with some success (and not!) on my dogs. I also started a Flower Essence Animal Practitioner Course, which for various reasons gave up last year.

    Accredited Pet Professional Register - Covers all professions within the Pet Care Industry. You have to attain a certain academic level, HND/Foundation degree minimum (not just ACC courses, but other providers count), send a portfolio (copies of certs of attendences etc. / qualification certs) plus 2 client testimonials and have so many hours experience.

    The 'Guild of Dog Trainers' - Training only? Which I think is run by or connected with the CIDBT (Cambridge Institute of Dog Behaviour and Training) You chose what level you want to join at (not sure how you decide?) pay your money and complete their application for it to be considered.

    APBC - You need a Degree and covers 'Behaviour' only

    ASAB - You need to be even more way up there in Higher academic realms than the APBC I believe.

    PAACT - The Professional Association of Applied Canine Trainers - Set up by a London Trainer called Stan Rawlinson - No formal qualifications required, but references (clients & Professional) required. The names of members seems to have changed very little from when I last looked a couple of years ago. It claims to be an organisation 'like no other'.

    I am sure there are more that I am not aware of.

    Now these 'memberships' range from about £30 > £120 (or more I dare say) a year, so joining more than one can be a pricey affair.

    I feel that the newer ones are hedging their bets in that, when & IF any legislation is passed, they can vie for inclusion to such lists of recognised organisatoins. Mind you, I did read somewhere (can't recall where at present) that should legislation be passed, the Kennel Club Scheme should be used as the basis for 'Pet Care Professionals' for species others than dogs. Mind you, it was probaly something written by the KC themselves! I doubt though any such legislation will be top on the list of any new government, so we will all still be none the wiser as the best 'next step' organisation to join after completing our various studies?!

    Is there a benefit to joining several organisations do you think or stick to one and hope that will become the government's choice longer term?

    Chris

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    Join date : 2010-03-29

    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Chris on Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:57 am

    Ask your vet who they have heard of Smile

    Many now do know of the APDT, APBC and the Kennel Club as they, I think, have been established longer than the others so many of their clients have used their members.

    When I joined the APDT it wasn't really to gain credibility, it was more because I believe in their ethos which mirrors my own.

    Admin
    Admin

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Admin on Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:13 am

    I am a member of the APDT. I think I joined because it seemed to be the most reputable at the time and my vet suggested it when I first started training. At the time to join you needed to be assessd by an APDT member coming to watch your classes. It was very nerve racking. After the classes I was grilled for about 30 minutes about things I had done during class and why I had done them. One very annoying thing was that it was around week 5 of the course so people had quite a good understanding, the assessor kept asking me why I hadn't covered certain things which we had in fact covered over the first 4 weeks. When I explained this and said it was all included in the handouts I had given her she said she couldn't read them as she had forgotten her glasses! I found it a little bizarre - how could I possibly include everything from week 1-4 in week 5 and why would I when I had already covered it?! She was very patronising and I have since heard she is very heavy handed with her dogs, so I wasn't too impressed.

    The assessment criteria has changed now though and I believe Chris is an assessor? I was going to become an assessor myself but unfortunately the course clashed with something else I had already arranged.

    I joined PAACT when it first started. Seemed a good idea to be a member of another org. It all started to become a little controversial though and the proprietor appeared not to be what he claimed. I never paid membership and have asked on a number of occasions to be removed from the list but my name is still up there, 4/5 years later. I sent quite a stern email earlier this year - must check again to make sure my name is removed.

    I looked at the KCAI but wilted at the forms that had to be filled in! Perhaps I will have another look. Not a lover of these orgs that are run by the old school and have no intention of coming into the 21st Century. The BHS is the same in the horsey world!

    I want to do more behaviour work and as I take in dogs for residential training I need to be constantly improving my knowledge of dealing with a variety of problems. That is why I want to do more courses. Most of the local vets refer to me but some won't as I am not a member of a "Behaviour Org" and can't join as I don't have a degree only the HNC. Hoping with the Compass AdDip I can get on to the UKRCB and.

    I will be interested to hear what others have to say about the various organisations.
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    Carole.T

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Carole.T on Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:27 pm

    I agree with joining an organisation if you believe in their ethics is the main reason for joining. The APDT assessors recognised this on my assessment (the 'new' process) as got max marks for that. It is just that when all the other trainers around here are APDT, then it is difficult 'competing' for business as it were, when not belonging to some-one like the APDT. I must admit I was not too happy with the quality of my feedback and there were some major contradictions which I did feedback to the office on, but nothing changed sadly. Not saying that I should have passed, just surprised by amount and style of the feedback and some of the comments. After so much work is put in by the applicant under the new system, it was frustrating.

    Moving on as they say!

    I remember, there is also COAPE.
    I have only come across 2 COAPE Trainers/Behaviourists so far and one was very professional (a Ttouch practitioner as well), the other - well I shall say no more. COAPE 'practitioners' are assessed and passed 'In house' aren't they, once their COAPE Diploma is completed?

    I suppose there are good and bad aspects about all these organisations. I just want to ensure that I don't waste my time and money. Of course, I won't join anything for the sake of it - as the other Chris says (would that be Chris B off the APDT forum? otherwise will have to call you Chris's; Chris 1 & Chris 2!!), you have to agree with their ethics. Yes, a good idea to ask the local vets who they have heard of and happy to deal with.

    Chris

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Chris on Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:49 pm

    Hi Carol and yes, it is Chris B from the APDT forum (Chris, myself and another Chris always managed to create a fair bit of confusion when we took the HNC at the same time because nobody seemed to know who they were talking to Smile )

    Yes, I am (or was) an assessor fot the APDT. The feedback given has to be in depth so that applicants who don't manage to pass first time around can see where they went wrong. However, none of it should be contradictory and if you raised a complaint, you should have had a detailed report about that also.

    Of course, whilst the criteria is standard, the assessors are all individuals so some variance (although hopefully not a lot) is bound to occur. Each applicant has two assessors who both vet the written, practical and interview and their report (presented jointly after discussion and agreement) is sent to the office prior to being sent to the applicant. Paperwork is kept on file for a period of time so that should a complaint or query arises, all of the notes and original paperwork is available to be reviewed.

    It's a relatively new assessment procedure which is working far better than the old system which raised much criticism from outside trainers. The objective is to ensure that when we recommend an APDT trainer, we are as certain as can be that only kind, fair and effective methods will be used and that the trainer is of a standard that is in line with the professionalism of the organisation.

    On saying that, it was very bad luck to fail by just one point and with such a narrow margin and with the feedback given (provided you got the contradictions sorted) you should waltz it if you give it another go.

    Admin
    Admin

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Admin on Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:10 am

    Ah yes the three Chrisses! Haven't heard from Chris J for ages.

    COAPE, we have a coape person up this way, he sold a prong collar to a client of mine a few months ago for her weimaraner. Fortunately, she didn't like the look of it so never used it in the end and didn't go back to him but came to me instead.

    I wonder if it is wrong to assume that just because a person is a member of an organisation they are following the ethos of that org? Certainly with the APDT I haven't heard of any spot checks to ensure you are delivering in a "kind, fair and effective" manner. But then how on earth could it be policed, virtually impossible. I know of a number of APDT people who do not use KFE all the time.

    If people want to try out other classes I usually advise them to go watch and see if they like what they see. If they are at all apprehensive about any of the methods used then don't go.

    Chris

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Chris on Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:13 am

    Spot checks, while in theory are great, in reality are a drain on limited resources. Hopefully, with the new assessment procedure and complaints being more thoroughly investigated things will get better as those trainers who 'fiddled' the old assessment procedure leave.

    I've never understood why people join organisations that have rules in place that they don't believe in or have no intention of abiding to. Maybe I'm just too optimistic and trusting - in fact the older I get and the more I see of human nature, the more I know how gullible I have always been Sad

    Admin
    Admin

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Admin on Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:05 pm

    Same here Chris. I used to be constantly disappointed by people not living up to their claims/keeping promises. As I have got older I have become less gullible, but it doesn't stop me from becoming frustrated and angry by these people.
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    olwen

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  olwen on Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:16 pm

    I agree that there are a lot of organisations and it's hard to know what one(s) to join.

    I'm also a member of INTOdogs, I took the APDT test last year and failed by one point too! I am going for it again this year. I have heard a mix of different views on APDT members with some people not using KFE methods and others who are too far the other way.

    The main thing that peeved me with the assessment is that I heard my result from a 3rd party before I heard it from APDT!

    I do a mix of training and behaviour, mainly because it's client led and I get people asking if they can bring their dog who knows how to sit etc to classes as it barks at other dogs!

    My plan is to do behaviour work so I'm aiming for APBC.

    Admin
    Admin

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Admin on Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:35 pm

    Do you need a degree for APBC? I am getting mixed up with the criteria for all this different orgs!

    Chris

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Chris on Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:54 pm

    Yes you need a degree for the APBC (poet and didn't know it Smile )

    Admin
    Admin

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Admin on Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:13 am

    ta Chris, poet laureate in waiting!

    lance
    Admin

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  lance on Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:41 pm

    I have just read news of the setting up of ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR AND TRAINING COUNCIL, a new regulatory body which is consulting with many organisations. A regulatory framework is expected to be in place by September 2010.
    See www.compass-education.co.uk for info
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    olwen

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  olwen on Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:01 pm

    That's been gettting talked about for a little while and is one of the reasons I started on the formal qualification route. I did think that the Kennel Club were involved in the talks with CAWC but they don't seem to be on that list.

    Maybe they've come off to set up their own accredited city and guilds scheme.

    The industry does need regulating as there are far too many people out there using out of date methods and giving harmful advice. Anyone can set themselves up as a dog trainer or behaviourist with no knowledge or qualifications.
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    Carole.T

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Carole.T on Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:51 pm

    Thanks for the info Lance. Very interesting.

    As Olwen says, it is strange that the KC is not on the list. I do agree, some form of Register is needed that the public can have confidence in.

    Another interesting point is that, the Animal Care College initiated a Register of 'Accredited Petcare Professionals' last autumn, again to supposedly address this issue of unregulated Trainers/Behaviourists etc. Now, this was set up with the backing of CAWC, who also encouraged the ACC to provide 'formal' individual identification of academic achievements in these areas, by students being awarded post nominal letters (e.g. Dip Can.Psych).

    Now it seems, the ACC has been approached by the PetCare Trust, to "work together with the ACC to develop and refine the concept", as oppossed to the original CAWC partnership.

    The Newsletter goes on to say;
    "An Accredited Petcare Professional will have shown that they are competent by the completion of
    one or more of the comprehensive range of accredited courses which are available through
    colleges of further education, private training schools or through demonstrable long term success
    and achievement within their chosen profession."

    Hmmm, maybe I am getting a little cynical - but why did the ACC start with the backing of the CAWC (who are on the list), then change to the PetCare Trust at the same time this further proposed Register organisation is being set up? Why isn't the PetCare Trust on the list as well if they are all for 'refining and developing' such a scheme and an independant charity?

    Seems to me it may all be getting a little political or vying for various alliegances. Otherwise surely, if all wanting the same thing, all orgs would get together on this. Otherwise we may be back to square one, with various 'Register' organisations to choose from as well, let alone the individual organisations!!

    That is, until any actual Act of Parliament is passed to set one up (which I doubt is at the top of any of the political parties agendas at present - just like the new Dog Control Bill has been kicked into touch for the time being). Maybe they are all getting in there ready to put in a tender as it were, to become THE overseeing body (I.E. Animal Behaviour and Training Council, Kennel Club Accreditation Scheme, Accredited Petcare Professionals Register etc. etc.). Mind you there is always the danger of any government copping out and only allowing say, Vets to carry out Behavioural work?

    I may email the ACC to ask why their Accredited Petcare Professionals Register is not on the list, as I was toying with joining their APP Register, being as when enquiring with them I qualified (just have to get 2 written testimonials and send a portfolio of diploma certs, course attendences etc - bit like the KC Scheme) for a nice fee of course!

    Decisions, decisions scratch

    Admin
    Admin

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  Admin on Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:10 am

    David Montgomery told me about this when I spoke to him about the diploma course. Some of the dog industry were not in favour of the new council, ACC were one I think. I wish I'd taken more notice of what he was saying!
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    olwen

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    Re: Different Organisations

    Post  olwen on Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:49 pm

    Carole.T wrote:

    Decisions, decisions scratch

    I am thinking about putting all the names into a hat and joining the one I pull out. geek

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